BRITISH NOVICE CHAMPIONSHIPS DATE & VENUE SET

God of War wrote:

Good to hear Alex is pulling Peter.
Dean is Wayne STILL pulling novice

I would not say he was a novice in terms of strength and also for the fact that he's been training for so long, but he's only entered a few comps, which seems to be the excuse used for most guys that stay novices.

dan wrote:

God of War wrote:

Good to hear Alex is pulling Peter.
Dean is Wayne STILL pulling novice

but he's only entered a few comps,:

Which makes him a novice.... and he cant be pro level cos hes never won any of them novice comps hes entered... results prove it.

Its ok being super strong but if your not transferring it to the table in comps then you cant really be considered a pro

No offence wayne..

Some will think it's down to the individual to make the decision when they should transfer from novice to pro
but as we've seen in my case it's NOT.
The decision should be made by the governing body of the B.A.F. and if we're going by the individuals results in
past comps then if my memory serves me correctly, Wayne already placed 2nd in last years novice championship,
beating the likes of "THE POWER' and myself.
This is nothing personal against Wayne, in fact we had a very good chat about the subject at the beginning of the
year in Preston.
I understand his disposition of making the transition to pro at his age and if he choses not to does that mean he
should be disallowed from competing in the sport he loves
The facts here are clear m8, with the amount of experience he's gained and the amount of training time he's had
Wayne has had not only more table time than me or some of my contemporaries but has also pulled MORE comps.
'Novice' should mean just that and i am forced to reiterate the importance of encouraging NOVICES to enter our
sport and their numbers increase and NOT be discouraged by competing against ANY individuals who have accumulated
over a decade of experience at the table.
Again i reiterate i mean NO disrespect to Wayne but there will be many guys taking part in this comp who have only been
training for a few months, who thinks this is fair
Peter Henderson, James Green and myself have all made the transition and so should Wayne.
What about yourself Dean, how many comps have you pulled in
Maybe we should just return to the novices since we've not pulled so many.

I would have to agree with Mark and Dan because we all know Wayne is a strong dude. Even though i think it's good to see him pulling again, i also think it shouldn't be in a novice competition pulling against guy's that are new to the sport... it just doesn't seem fair to me. If i entered a novice competition when i was new i would expect to be pulling against guy's like me... new or with little experience in the sport. I guess this is one for Neil to decide, either way i wish Wayne all the best for the future in the sport.

Ok, i hear what your saying... problem is is if everyone whos any good turn pro, therell not be enough people to run a serious novice comp... just the way i see it..


Mark, i think ive prob pulled in maybe 8 comps.. Didnt do british novice.. i was put in pro straight away.

That's hardly a reason m8 (because there will be no novices left).
We have the responsibility to MAKE this sport develop and grow.
It's up to us to encourage, teach and advise all novices of what this sport has to offer them and
what part they can play.
New blood WILL continue to pour into Arm Wrestling in the U.K. and i for one will be doing my part
in Scotland.
If i sit back and allow ANY novice to compete against ANY individual who has had years of training
then i am not only a bad example of a pro but also a bad ambassador for the sport.

You reckon you've pulled about 8 comps m8, how many has Wayne pulled over the years
I've pulled three so theoretically my national win was a fluke and i can pull novice.

I'm sure most of the members have been offline and still read this thread, i therefore ask you to
come online and leave your response.
This is an issue that i've been aware off since i began competeing in England and it isn't about to
just go away unless it is resolved once and for all.
The decision made regarding this will affect ALL future novice comps and will set the precedence
for the rest that follow.
Can any individual, regardless of personal achievement, be allowed to compete in a novice competition
if he or she has had more than 4 or 5 years training from pro's
Surely if we all want the sport to grow and develop we can then come to a mutual decision regarding this
TRIVIAL matter.
Rules have to be set in place and be clearly seen for all to follow.
I personally have no interest in having my novices fork out 25 quid each, stand the risk of being injured
and myself cough up 75 quid on fuel so that pro's or veterans can make up the numbers.
Your comments please gentlemen

I think its probably as you say, we can talk about it all day long but the man who runs the BAF has the say on how it goes...

I've said it before and i'll say it again, it doesn't matter how many comps you've won or entered, if you have trained long enough and developed enough strength, you are not a novice, by some peoples rationale, an armwrestler could train for twenty years but as long as they never win a comp can still be regarded as a novice. The definintion of a novice is someone who is new to something, not someone who trains and competes for years without success, the word for that person is amateur, and should be looking to enter the open class to improve amoungst their peers. You may not feel that you are a pro or elite, but you most certainly are not new. Suck it up, pull open class, take your losses and improve, I never won a novice comp, infact i only pulled 8 months as a novice before getting a second place to Steve Mcphee at the British novice in 2008, after that i pestered Neil to get me on the Arm Wars card, and only ever entered the open class after that. Mark is absolutely right, how can we expect complete newbies to join in and stay interested in the sport if they turn up for a comp and get beaten by guys who have been pulling for years?

And also, as far as i'm concerned, a top 3 placing in an open comp or British nationals (Novice or otherwise) should mean that regardless of length of time in the sport you cannot enter a novice comp again, if you are good enough to beat pro's at that level then why would you want to stay a novice?

then thats what the rules should state... im all up for a set of fixed rules... but im sure there already is some.

Well its an interesting topic, been keepin an eye on the conversation and got me thinking.

What would you guys class me at ?

I started in or around early nineties just entering few novice comps, i'd won my village in lightweight and come in top 3 in wigan at lightweight after a year i won the wigan then later won the Northwest novice, 12 in weight group, later after few more comps started entering pros and eventually noticed in myself i was improving well and then had a bad spell of serious illness that put me out of action for 2 years .
But comeback and started doing well again, my goal was mostly to prove to myself that after nearly dying and weighing 8 and a half stone when i come out of hospital in 1999 that i could come back to the sport strong and progress and finish on a good note and i did that in late 2000 started again getting my ass whapped but finshed off coming third in 2003 at Armwars.
Had plenty armwrestles and i know for a fact we can all improve dramaticly.

The ones that come straight in as pros is the rooneys of the sport.

Definatley needs more armwrestlers in each weight group thou

I think the problem is all this talk of "NOVICES" is slightly misleading.

Imo, the actual problem is that the "British Novice Championships" should really be called "British Amateurs" as historically it's had a bunch of guys pulling who aren't total newbies and aren't new to the sport (Tom Holland for one!). Obviously it has attracted guys who are newish to the sport but I'd say the mainstay are slightly more experienced pullers, these are the guys who make the numbers up. I've read this entire thread back to back and it's clear there's guys of varying abilities who are planning on taking part and until now no one's really made a fuss.

There's clearly layers of experience in the sport, from a total newbie to the massively experienced, but no matter what length of time you've pulled for, everyone progresses at different rates, which is why Neil has decided when a puller can no longer remain "novice" and gives them the nod, or guys step up off their own back and say that's it for "novice" events, like Dan for example.

If there was a rule like "you can only pull for one year as a novice" it'd screw guys who go away or don't take it very seriously (like me for my first year) and they may never come back if they know they're going to get their asses handed to them by people like Craig - not good for motivation or recruiting people.

If we make it so that anyone who's won an Open class event or placed top 3 at the British is barred from entry, that means for a start both Anil and myself would be barred from entering (because of the new year cup last year and Anils 3rd at the brits), and so would Steve Harris, this is just me thinking of my weight class... I've never actually entered a "novice" event, I did the new year cup twice then the Brits this year. I guess the comp Dean did in Leicester had some newbie guys in as it was open entry, but the top 3 placed guys were all more experienced (including me).

I do agree there have to be some rules to stop guys dominating an event year on year, and guys who are old pros coming back and deciding they are now novices again because they haven't trained for a while But at the end of the day if we chuck in loads of crazy rules it'll just mean a low turnout. Surely if you win the British Novice you should turn pro, that's a given but beyond that isn't it regulating itself pretty alright already?

You make some good and valid points Leon, however, are you suggesting that you won't step up to open class until you feel that you could beat Craig? In every class there are guys that are pretty much untouchable, Dean, Ted, Steve Rogers, Chris Ham, Rod, Craig, Andy, Neil, Alan etc. That still leaves an entire class that can be beaten at your weight. We all pull our classes with the knowledge that eventually we will have to pull one of these elite guys at some point during the comp, and more than likely lose to them but we enter anyway and play the cards we're dealt, it's what makes us stronger and therefore better armwrestlers. I'll use my brother as an example of this. As a novice he can pretty much walk through the supers, with only Steven Sowah in a position to challenge him on the left arm, but if he pulled supers at open level, he'd lose, however, if he gets down to 90kg, he'll be top 3 in every open comp leftie and that's with only 2 comps under his belt so far, with sparodic training. He could still be considered a novice, yet as you know, he kicks my arse on the left all the time and has taken the occasional pin off my right as well.

I agree, there should be a novice level for local/ regional comps to get people in off the street and give them a chance to see what this sport is about but there should be an amateur division for anyone with at least 1 years training under their belt, regardless of success in comps. The British novice should become the British Amatuer with no one allowed to enter until they've had at least 6 months training (This would sort out the guys who really want to be armwrestlers from those who don't) and anyone placing top 3 would then have to pull the British open from then on.

dan wrote:

You make some good and valid points Leon, however, are you suggesting that you won't step up to open class until you feel that you could beat Craig? In every class there are guys that are pretty much untouchable, Dean, Ted, Steve Rogers, Chris Ham, Rod, Craig, Andy, Neil, Alan etc. That still leaves an entire class that can be beaten at your weight. We all pull our classes with the knowledge that eventually we will have to pull one of these elite guys at some point during the comp, and more than likely lose to them but we enter anyway and play the cards we're dealt, it's what makes us stronger and therefore better armwrestlers. I'll use my brother as an example of this. As a novice he can pretty much walk through the supers, with only Steven Sowah in a position to challenge him on the left arm, but if he pulled supers at open level, he'd lose, however, if he gets down to 90kg, he'll be top 3 in every open comp leftie and that's with only 2 comps under his belt so far, with sparodic training. He could still be considered a novice, yet as you know, he kicks my arse on the left all the time and has taken the occasional pin off my right as well.

Haha of course I'm not suggesting that, you know I'm well up for pulling Craig and have done plenty of times (like a few weeks ago when I had a war with him left handed and we nearly tore each others thumbs off). I entered the british open this year just for the experience, even knowing the moment I got out of bed that day that i felt bloody awful and was in deep trouble! What I was writing wasn't really for my benefit.

I can see why you got the wrong end of the stick because of how I wrote it though; what I meant was there's going to be guys who could be ruled "no longer novices" by some of these suggestions, due to the fact they've done a bit of arm wrestling at a club for a year say, hence the "Amateur" idea: For my first year of training I didn't take it very seriously at all, if someone had said to me ok mate now it's goodbye to ever pulling a novice comp and time to pull Craig I'd have probably just gone ok then forget it.

With Chris, he's probably pulled at the MK clubas much as me, but for a period of time he was just watching. I'd say he's an amateur, or let's say entitled to enter the british novice as it stands. And yeah he'll do very well in pro comps when he goes to 90kg, he's a tank left.

Quote :

I agree, there should be a novice level for local/ regional comps to get people in off the street and give them a chance to see what this sport is about but there should be an amateur division for anyone with at least 1 years training under their belt, regardless of success in comps. The British novice should become the British Amatuer and anyone placing top 3 would then have to pull the British open from then on.

Yeah, this is spot on imo and is what I was getting at.

Firstly i'll give you my opinion Dave.
As an old pro you may have lost a great deal of your ability and strenght at the table due to
health problems and time away from the sport however once a pro always a pro.
The mistake was made already this year by the admittance of Charlie Twigg into
the New Year Cup.
We should all learn from this example and move on, Charlie now pulls pro again and has been
very successful at that level.
I understand that you may have a great deal of catching up to do than some of your contemporaries
but it isn't as much catching up as the new guys.

This issue needs to be clarified by Neil once and for all.
Paul Maiden, you have been very outspoken of late about having a committee, surely you can give
us all your input regarding this.
Nick you too, it's not like you to remain quiet, we need to here the input from seasoned pro's like
yourself and Stuart.
Andy Barker, the same applies to you.
Your presence on the forum may be some what lacking however m8 your expertise and experience is not.
I'm not going through all of the 'Elites' but i know you are reading this, get on here and give us your response guys.

Dan there's not much need to disect what you've said m8, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.
The one point i will address though and this will take me into leon's post is the requirement for an amateur devision.

Imo the British Novice Championships needs to be for amateur level pullers; I don't see the point of having a "championship" aimed at guys who've trained for a very short period of time or never armwrestled before and have just walked in off the street. That'd just single out who's already strongest from other disciplines / and who has the best genetics, which is essentially a lottery and not so "sporting" imo.

An amateur division can be easily established, it just takes the organiser of a comp to say ok we'll do novice, then amateur and finish with an open pro class, I propose 3 weight classes at novice, 70, 90, +90, then 65, 75, 85, 90, +90 at amateur and open weight for pro/ elite. We are the people that can make this happen when we run our comps, so really there is nothing stopping us doing this. I'll be running a monthly novice comp for the members of the gym where i have my club and eventually i'll look to getting a comp on the BAF calender.

Leon wrote:

Imo the British Novice Championships needs to be for amateur level pullers; I don't see the point of having a "championship" aimed at guys who've trained for a very short period of time or never armwrestled before and have just walked in off the street. That'd just single out who's already strongest from other disciplines / and who has the best genetics, which is essentially a lottery and not so "sporting" imo.

I agree, which is why i suggested the amateurs can only be entered by people with at least 6 months of training, it also gives the novices something to aim for, kind of like motor racing, you don't get to be a formula 1 driver without proving yourself in the other racing classes

Leon what you've said about the novice class being called the amateur class makes a great deal of sence
however the fundamental problem that we're all aware of remains, there isn't enough funds for someone (Neil or
committee) to run an extra devision.
If there are individuals in the future who fall into a junior class like 'Tom Holland' then they should not be permitted
to enter the novice or pro classes until they are of age.
Once they have turned 16 years old and depending on the advice from their club representitives (PRO"S) it can then
be decided which comps these individuals should enter.
This will help protect them and B.A.F. from future lagalities since legally they are still viewed as minors and having them
sign any forms before a competition would not be permissible in court.
It would be a great shame if there weren't enough novice competitors to run a novice comp but if that were the case
then a "novice Comp" in which pro's make up the numbers should most definitely NOT go ahead. - DEAN
As for individuals who don't take it seriously.
If these people aren't willing to progress and train as others do, showing up to the occassional competition, then they're
no good for the sport. (Would a pro football team be willing to invest time and energy in training individuals who
only show up to the occassional training session or match )
If they chose not to come back because they're scared of getting their asses handed to them then again we can do
without them.
This is a full-time sport with athletes who train and compete full-time.
People like Anil, Steve Harris and yourself should NOT be forced to compete at levels they are not yet ready for just
because they have performed well at an open competition unless they have shown consistentcy at the table.
(Again this information would be passed on to the B.A.F. by their respective club representitive)
As things stand, the issue about novice, amateur and pro does NOT regulate itself otherwise this discussion would
not be taking place.
Dean, you were the one who brought this issue up about Wayne and anyone else who falls into a similar disposition and
i'm sure your regularly in touch with him, i'd like to hear what he has to say on the subject.
I'm sure he has no desire to remain at novice level for the rest of his arm wrestling career.

In case you are wondering how to regulate and monitor this, i suggest that all clubs that wish to run within the structure of the BAF must register and pay an annual fee to the BAF, much like football teams do with the FA, then new members to the clubs have thier details registered as well. The club is then responsible for training the novices and providing internal competitions to assess the level of progression, only after 6 months with a club and entry in a regional/national novice comp would they then be elligable to enter the British amateurs. If they fall outside the top 3 they then have another 6 months as a novice before having to move up to amateur, again with more internal comps to measure progression.

Mark, you are bang on, i think a lot of my progression had to do with the fact that Neil would speak to my then coach Steve Kirlew and he would be told about my level and progression, which kind of brings me to my previous post, the club coaches should be talking with the appropriate authorities as to who is ready based on levels reached in training or internal club comps. I know that i will be pushing my guys hard to move them up and if they don't want to commit to the club or the training involved, i won't commit my time to them.

My attitude exactly m8, i'll give my time to anyone who wants to train seriously and although i expect a few
teething problems at the start due to the intensity of the training and of course the pain involved with arm
wrestling i will NOT continue to train and waste the time of my other students and myself for those who have
a half arsed attitude.

God of War wrote:

Leon what you've said about the novice class being called the amateur class makes a great deal of sence
however the fundamental problem that we're all aware of remains, there isn't enough funds for someone (Neil or
committee) to run an extra devision.
If there are individuals in the future who fall into a junior class like 'Tom Holland' then they should not be permitted
to enter the novice or pro classes until they are of age.
Once they have turned 16 years old and depending on the advice from their club representitives (PRO"S) it can then
be decided which comps these individuals should enter.
This will help protect them and B.A.F. from future lagalities since legally they are still viewed as minors and having them
sign any forms before a competition would not be permissible in court.
It would be a great shame if there weren't enough novice competitors to run a novice comp but if that were the case
then a "novice Comp" in which pro's make up the numbers should most definitely NOT go ahead. - DEAN
As for individuals who don't take it seriously.
If these people aren't willing to progress and train as others do, showing up to the occassional competition, then they're
no good for the sport. (Would a pro football team be willing to invest time and energy in training individuals who
only show up to the occassional training session or match )
If they chose not to come back because they're scared of getting their asses handed to them then again we can do
without them.
This is a full-time sport with athletes who train and compete full-time.
People like Anil, Steve Harris and yourself should NOT be forced to compete at levels they are not yet ready for just
because they have performed well at an open competition unless they have shown consistentcy at the table.
(Again this information would be passed on to the B.A.F. by their respective club representitive)
As things stand, the issue about novice, amateur and pro does NOT regulate itself otherwise this discussion would
not be taking place.
Dean, you were the one who brought this issue up about Wayne and anyone else who falls into a similar disposition and
i'm sure your regularly in touch with him, i'd like to hear what he has to say on the subject.
I'm sure he has no desire to remain at novice level for the rest of his arm wrestling career.

I'm not really proposing a seperate Amateur class btw Mark, I agree that it's impractical to run 3 divisions. I think the current "novice division" should really be named "Amateur" to remove the confusion, then if people or clubs want to put on competitions drumming up interest for total newbies (actual novices) to the sport then even better.

I don't mean to go into semantics but "Novice" means someone new to something, a beginner and if the British Novice championships was restricted to people who honestly fit that remit we'd have about 5 people enter.

Atm we don't have a properly regulated system of clubs and club representatives (I'm not even a member of any particular club anymore) so it's going to be tricky for things to work in the way you mention, but then again that's another story and one which was never really resolved...

When I gave examples about people not taking it so seriously I was referrencing the idea of a fixed "time limit" on how long someone can remain a "novice", an idea I just don't think is workable in reality, considering not everyone who arm wrestles is able/willing to take it as seriously as others. That's their choice and while I understand your sentiments these people do exist and a fixed time limit would probably rule them out of competing. I'm guessing Wayne could fall into this remit.

I agree there does need to be some clarification, without a level playing field that everyone understands, it's going to be hard to move forward and we'll waste time arguing over these points each year.