Just wondering, who's making the money from televised armwrestling?

Can I say, I am writing this in trying to help all armwrestlers. I mean no offence to anyone involved in organising the Eurosports armwrestling programme, but just stating some points, if I may... Firstly, nothing gets shown on TV, without being paid for. Someone must be making a decent sum of money from these televised matches, as everyone and anyone makes money from anything shown on TV. Who exactly is raking in all the cash, such as/including the TV rights? If nobody knows how this entire procedure is operating and how much money is involved and where this money is being allocated...then why not...? All the arm wrestlers involved should also be informed of how this is being operated. If not, why compete in the first place, if you’re not allowed to know what’s going on... Can you imagine two boxers stepping into the ring of a televised fight, or indeed any televised sports match and being told, 'hey you ain’t getting any money. Beat yourself up by all means, but if you want any cash from it, you are going to have to go out and find a way of making it yourself...' I know there aren’t any Don King’s or boxing promoter’s involved here...and I also know this ain’t no lucrative boxing show, buy hey, wait a minute, isn’t an armwrestler competing in this televised event making somebody money in the first place... TV channels pay production companies to make programmes, therefore Eurosports is paying somebody...so why not any of this money coming down to the amwrestlers themselves? They are doing all the ‘main event work’ and are the very reason the programme is there i.e it’s an armwrestling sports programme. As I say, nothing personal, but with something good enough and commercial enough to be shown on Eurosport, and then armwrestlers not being paid a penny, it would lead even the most philosophical audience to believe all the armwrestlers are being taken for a free ride. It’s incredible, the cameraman is being paid, and I fully expect the commentators involved too, as well as all the ‘blow the line’ workers involved in the show (let alone the more senior people involved above the line), so why not the people it centres around i.e the armwrestlers... There is a saying...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Armwrestlers grafting on TV for nothing, no matter how much they want to just compete and win, does little in my opinion in lifting the credentials of these worthy sportsmen and women. With such a large TV audience - as already indicated, then surely armwrestlers competing should at least receive something, as no doubt the television company whom produced the show for Eurosport has done in sufficient amount.... And the armwrestlers involved...unfortunately, not a penny. No offence, and as I say, I would like to think I’m politely putting my point across and purely trying to protect all armwrestlers interests here - the people at the top organising this and the sports people competing should have separate representation. Business is business and as they say, it’s nothing personal, but if these televised matches continues indefinitely, the armwrestlers competing should perhaps get their heads together and think about how to improve their situation, perhaps even get a sports lawyer to look at the contracts involved and whether they have a potential right of earnings here, I think. Please, nobody bite my head of. Just here to help.

My opinion might be ill informed but for a moment lets compare armwrestling to worlds strongest man. As far as I know, there is no major prize money for GB national events. At best there maybe a car or a bike for major national contest winners (but rare). What the event does give you is a stage to perform and show the world how well you can perform. From that it is upto you, go out and get your sponsors and progress from there. The only person doing well from this sport is Marius, but he has promoted himself with his own sposors and hard work - off stage.
Worlds strongest man is more popular but yet still not financial viable to earn a living it desreves - yet.

I am sure I don't know a lot of the inside facts - but sometimes the spectator sees more of the game.

Gary, you are polite, you write with an air of authority however you are unfortunately misguided beyond belief and by spreading such factually inaccurate nonsense as though it was based on a degree of substance its incredibly unfortunate for everyone and anyone who actually does want to see this sport develop some day into a genuine self sustaining concern.

Look, I could come on here and write in detail about the ins and outs of how the Eurosports deal is structured, I am not going to because its none of your business and is a private enterprise and nothing at all to do with BAF, EAF or WAF but if you are smart enough to have considered everything which you have detailed in your post then here is one for you to mull over and draw your own conclusions from, WHY, IF THERE WERE SIGNIFICANT SUMS OF MONEY TO BE MADE FROM THE EUROSPORT SHOW (or any other Armwrestling venture currently in existence) WOULD I BE WORKING AS A BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT MANAGER FOR A WINE COMPANY IN MANCHESTER FIVE DAYS A WEEK !!!?

Have a think about that and see what you come up with, people like you are extremely frustrating to me (more than any other type of individual to be honest) WHY !? because you dress yourself up as the saviour of the Armwrestlers, when the cold harsh reality, is that you are actually representative of trying to rebel rouse and derail the most viable shot that the sport has EVER had of actually getting some recognition and going somewhere. You are trying to kill something before it has ANYWHERE NEAR GOT GOING. If you were going to make up ridiculous theories, at least work on your timing mate, when I am in my Rolls Royce outside my Brand New 10 bedroomed crib then sure sling some mud but really mate give yourself a reality check here and do everyone a favour.

In answer to your question therefore there is no money being made from the televised Armwrestling Gary, just investment and a massive MASSIVE amount of effort, personal sacrifice and financial backing in an attempt to get the one sport I have EVER BEEN REALLY GOOD AT AND LOVED SINCE 1986 up and running.............and thats it............END OF.

As for Armwrestlers not being paid a penny.............have you ever for one minute sat down and thought about the running costs for pulling together a single event ! not to mention the editing post production studio time etc. etc. etc. to produce a WEEKLY SHOW !? have you !? no of course you haven't...........because if you had a person with your intelligence and apparent "knowledge and understanding" would soon realize that you would lose money doing this thing ! and ya know what you would be right too which is why I BUST MY ASS TRYING TO BREAK EVEN AT LEAST 24 / 7 so that other guys like me MIGHT get the chance to be on TV and not have people laugh at them when they explain what there chosen sport is !!!

The difference between you and me mate is that I am not talking about it writing about it or imagining it..........I AM LIVING IT DOING IT AND FEELING THE PRESSURE EVERY SINGLE DAY !!!

You talk about these worthy men and women being taken for a ride WTF are you talking about ! I am one of them and I spent 18 years of my career Armwrestling in small pubs up and down Europe for nothing and to be laughed at when I was BRITISH EUROPEAN AND WORLD CHAMPION !!!

These Days the Guys on the show get to Armwrestle at venues of genuine significance and actually feel like a sportsman, its not golf soccer or snooker BUT AT LEAST SOME ONE IS TRYING TO HAVE A GO AT IT MATE & ALL YOU WANT TO DO IS TRY TO REBEL ROUSE AND TALK LIKE PEOPLE ARE BEING CHEATED.

You said no one get fired or bite my head off BUT for Christs sake, its hard not to be a little passionate and frustrated when you are actually the guy living the thing day to day, having to explain to your wife why you are financing another event with money you could use on your home or family............for Christ Sake mate IF YOU REALLY DO GIVE A SHIT WAKE UP !!! THINK, THINK, THINK !!! AND OPEN YOUR EYES !!!

F*** me, this is a novel, i'll read this tomorrow. I know i like a bedtime story but damm.

Well, I didn't enjoy having to write it, or having to read Gary's original post either for that matter.

Its funny MANY MANY times my family have said to me that I am totally Nuts investing my own money, time and effort into Armwrestling and somewhere inside myself I think, well who knows one day IF I put the effort in there is a chance that I would be able to get Armwrestling off the ground as a serious Professional Sport............THEN I WOULD REALLY HAVE LEFT MY MARK ON THE SPORT..................IN A NUMBER OF WAYS..............I stupidly also sometimes think that when my lad Dempsey grew up people in the sport would say to him that they were a fan of his Dad because he was the man who first cracked the previously uncrackable and got the sport on TV and accepted as the serious sport that it is.

NEVER, in my mind do I picture the sick reality that all along, some guy who has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT WHATSOEVER would be motivated (for no apparent reason) to try to Brand me as a shady character who preys on the helpless Armwrestlers of Great Britain by manipulating them in order to finance my own financial gain. As the TV companies "who pay vast sums of money for minority sports" line my pockets !!! Don't worry Armwrestlers for I GARY will save you from this EVIL individual, who attacks your civil rights ta da da daaaaa !!!

That's because you FOR REAL are actually the type of guy you try to describe in your e mail Gary, you are the individual in this sport that I really couldn't care less about, for the Keith Taylor's, Ted Wilson's, Peter Burnell's Steve Roger's, Nick Hall's of this World and for myself too I willingly bust my ass week after week and I'm proud that I might be able to take our sport to a new level BUT YOU GARY................I feel sorry for you Gary, your just an empty space to me lad you are just a big negative misguided tangle of meaningless unfounded assumptions. Quoting sayings like "Fool me once, shame on you............" shame on me for what exactly the only shame about this whole thing for me is that if the sport does take off then lads like you will be able to jump on the bandwagon and claim that you are an Armwrestler and that you support the sport when in reality you are a parasite and tried to choke the life from it before it ever could walk on its own.

Right thats enough of that bollock and besides I need to get back downstairs and iron all those Tenners that the TV company just send & stoke that fire to keep my slaves sweating

Hmmmm, it would seem Gary has asked about an issue that is on lot of people's minds but certainly Neil, you have spoken with a great deal of passion and candour.
I myself am quite interested in th point James made about the worlds strongest men not being as lucrative as one would expected. It's true that the majority of these WORLD famous men have to have secular employment unless they can attain the same level of greatness as men like Mario. Remember Mario is no average strong man, he will go down history as possibly the GREATEST strong man of all time, yet even he has had to sponsor and PROMOTE himself on his venture.
Logically you MUST first promote yourself before others will promote you, however everyone is their OWN man (and women Jo, trying not to to be chauvanist ) and are solely responsible for making the decisions that affect them personally.
I believe that this is a debate that will continue until the arm wrestlers see financial fruition. (money talks) Sad but true.

Absolutely true Mark.

All I am asking is that people take a reality check on where Armwrestling is at.

Look at other established recognized combat sports, take the UFC for example on the HUGE Vegas fight cards that sell out the MGM Grand Garden Arena (circa. 15,000 seats) with tickets sold from between $50 to $750 dollars a pop there are fighters who are payed a purse of between $4,000 & $7,000 dollars for their fights ! FACT

Think about that.........lets use a $200 dollar average ticket price as an example that means a potential gate receipt of $3,000,000 (then minus approx. 30% of that for corporate & PR handouts etc. etc. $2,100,000) per event just at the gate ! & the bottom tier Fighters who might get their career ended that night fight for $4,000 ! WHY ! to get on the ladder to have the opportunity to self promote their skill as Mark correctly points out. I can't remember the last 15,000 seat arena that Armwrestling sold out at a $200 average gate fee, plus advertising revenue plus TV fees etc. BUT maybe Gary has the lowdown on things that I am not familiar with.

Its all about the money and what you pay back to the investing interest, therefore Armwrestling whose most famous athlete falls some distance short of a household name, is not quite at the level of commanding Premier League TV Rights. At the moment its all about investment to try to make the business & consequently the sport fly ! I am the investor Gary and of course I hope that one day it pays off for myself the athletes and everyone involved in the sport of Armwrestling, if and when it does should I be able to support my family through promoting the sport I love I would not be ashamed by that fact either, because I would deserve the success Gary as nobody that I am aware of in the history of this sport has worked harder at trying to get it off the ground & I really mean that.

James's post and Mark's highlight some very pertinent points which are far closer to the reality of Armwrestling's start on TV.

Also check out the show tonight on Eurosport around 10ish (check the listings for accurate air time)

Neil Has Said it all really

Gary - Neil has done what every armwrestler in the world has wanted do you know how nice it is to see your self on tv??? at this moment the armwars ( televised competition) are not bothered about money and never have i heard a guy at a armwars event say it to me... the fact is they just love there sport and all who love there sport try their best to make it as big as possible and since neils hard work in making these shows possible it has become bigger and better hopefully in the future neil will be rolling around in his rolls rouse coz he deserves it as does every puller he has had on the show but this is just beginning maybe we all will become rich in the future but first the sport needs to be known for as brilliant as it (as Neil is doing with the shows)

you would maybe understand if you knew the sport and the eurosport events more...

Firstly, let me say hi. Looking back, if my words were too harsh, apologies. Then, can I say, I was never finger pointing at any one individual, as I was merely under the impression any venture shown on television was created by more than just any one person. In fact, it is the television channel which decides what is to be aired or not. Secondly, I also think a debate on the issue is healthy. If there is no debate, there is no progress, and if everything has to be done in silence without criticism and not a word being said to provide a debate, then we are moving into authoritarian regime, which is never healthy in any democracy. It unfortunately seems I should never have said anything. Secondly, the point being made, which seems to have been unanswered, is that nothing gets shown on TV, unless the TV channel has an interest in it. It has to appeal to the audience and has to be commercial. TV channels get money from advertisers. If armwrestling has no commercial appeal to Eurosport, it wouldn’t be shown, or would be cut off after the first series. Advertisers pay TV channels, and TV channels show programmes to make money - that is how a channel operates and makes its profit, unless you’re the BBC. If people do not wish to agree that nobody is making money, and that tv channels show programmes on the basis of goodwill with no financial interest for their shareholders, then I understand, but I am merely stating fact. I am also merely stating that if a programme continues to air year after year, then a channel would view it as successful. Nothing is successful unless it is financially viable, and perhaps, if I can say, it would be nice if some of that money got channelled down to the arm wrestlers one day, whether that be in three years or thirty, or if that is never possible, then sorry for asking or putting forward an opinion. I am also saying that NO significant sums are involved - as I said, it isn’t lucrative like boxing. When I was saying ‘fool me once shame on me...etc’ I was saying that people should get what they deserve, what they are due, and that if money is made in the future, it is a shame if it was shared by the few and not by the many - but of course, I would expect that wouldn't be the case. I also understand expenditure is involved here for numerous parties involved in setting this up. I would also like to think that perhaps that would be tax deductable, at least on Eurosport's side. As I say, I won’t say anything further, as it seems too many issues may be taken out of context.

Armwrestling can be used as a stepping stone to gain financial reward but that will
only come from your own self marketing, it simply does not pull in the crowds as a
sport alone. In my opinion, I don’t think anyone is prepared or could do a better job of
promoting armwrestling than Neil. Don’t confuse the promotion of armwrestling with
the promotion and marketing of the athletes. That’s your job!!

If you want to earn big money from the sport then I would suggest you generate
public interest in you, not necessarily armwrestling. Take Travis for instance, not the
best, but he tells everyone he is. People who go and watch travis pull aren’t there just
because they want to see him armwrestle, they want to hear what contraversial
comments he has to offer. Everything Travis does is tongue in cheek and not taken
seriously but it is entertaining and that’s why Travis claims fees for appearances
because that’s what sells. The image he has created for himself is bigger than his
armwrestling capabilities and I say that in the full knowledge he is arguably the best
left hander in the world, subject to Dennis Cyplenkov.

Here is another man who has marketed himself very well. He would appear to be a
Russian experiment but regardless, his sheer size markets him alone and puts him on
the front cover of many a magazine. The best armwrestler of all time Mr John Brzenk
doesn’t generate the same level of interest towards the public and that is because he
hasn’t marketed himself to the same level.

So in short, if you want to earn money as a recognised armwrestler get yourself to a
reasonable level thus encouraging a greater chance of selection for prime matches and
possible televised shows. From there you will have more leverage to negotiate
possible sponsor deals but only if the sponsors appreciate the public will have an
interest in YOU.

Sounds simple doesn’t it!!! What’s all the fuss.

I spoked to Neils partner Paul Alderson in depth ln Jan at the armwars event he spoke to me about quite a few of the ins and outs on the matter he told me of the massive investment Neil and himself had made,and it was viable to get money gains in 18months but at the mo it was just money out,he also mentioned that he hoped the wrestler would benifit also in the same time frame..

We also have to look at the eurosport venture as the lower level person is being given the chance to pull main stream cards and airing on tv given then the chance to feel like a sportsman,its not only the Terzi.Brzenk,Baths and Todds of the worlds being given these chances.

Gary this is what the forum is all about, to air your views. Not everyone will agree but we all are entitled to our opinions.

i agree wif neil eurosport has given armwrestling and wrestlers more legitimacy,like he said most people aint got a clue and just laught and take the piss,but more and more people at work are telling me that they have seen it on eursports,and generlly interested about the different teckniques etc,and again we have all got jobs i arnt the least bit interested in earning money from armwrestling,thats why i go to work i obviously wouldnt turn it down but it shouldnt be the motivation for armwrestling

I don't believe for a minute that money is the motivation behind all the guys who are pulling at the moment and certainly shouldn't be the motivation of the novices. Having said that though, no sensible person would turn down the opportunity of making some if they have the potential to do so. A large majority of our pro arm wrestlers have that potential, therefore it would be disrespectful to assume there motivation is money when they have proven themselves fit to reap any rewards of the sport.

As Paul rightly said, Neil's shows allow the lower level pullers to get air time, I am grateful to Neil for this as I have been part of several of his shows and put in performances that will get me on TV, subsequently i can take this to prospective sponsors in a bid to get some financial support. Yes we all would like to see some money from this if only enough to cover the travel/ hotel costs. But for now we'll just have to wait. It will come eventually as with the UFC, back in it's formative days the fighters would barely make any money if any at all, they just wanted to fight, just as we want to armwrestle. Funding has to start with the armwrestlers, paying entry fees etc to allow comps to go ahead. We can't sit on our hands waiting for a rich oil sheik to turn up and throw money at it because it's the next must have sport after owning football clubs.

For me personally, i will armwrestle whenever and wherever i can, if i get some reward then that's a bonus, but it isn't my motivation. Beating the guy across the table from me is the only reason i need to turn up to every comp available. like everyone else i have a job and bills to pay, any money left from paying those bills goes towards supplements, travel and accomodation often sacrificing time with friends/ relationships etc which is hard but neccessary if I want to be the best in this sport.

just finished reading all this...had people ringing & texting me today
asking me have you seen all whats been going on the forum today....

i was wondering what was going on while driving the dumper at work

now i know

lol nick would make a great book

Like i've already said, this is an issue that will not go away. In the meantime it would be more reasonable for all all of us to lend our support to Neil, Nick,Paul, Ted and Richard when they are organising competitions and events for the benefit of ourselves and the sport. Having said that, bare in mind i also said you guys (and gals ) are your own bosses. You have the responsibility of determining which competitions you will enter. Many reasons play a factor here:- health, finance, family, and personal. We should always be trying to move the sport and each other forward just as much as the sport and our fellow sportsmen should respect our decisions for how actively involved we are.

Just as a matter of curiosity, since nobody else has asked!!!!!!! WHO IS GARY???????????

God of War wrote:

Just as a matter of curiosity, since nobody else has asked!!!!!!! WHO IS GARY???????????

I was wondering this myself. Is he an armwrestler who's one of those pub world champions or someone who wants to start in the sport

An individual and a sportsman who likes to express an opinion, with consideration, and without the need for ungentlemanly personal comments in reply (not the pub comment, as I'm all for humour). If having a voice and raising certain issues is not permitted within armwrestling, well that’s unfortunate I guess.

very interesting reading; its good to debate such matters , but surley gary should reveal who he is ? if your big enough to make such comments don t hide behind the anonimity of a made up name on the forum. you ve done what you set out to do and got everyone talking , surely your not too scared to reveal who you are

I concur with Bulldog

OK Gary, enough of the games.

Firstly lets make a distinction between Amateur and Professional Armwrestling so that regardless of whether you are a seasoned athlete who for whatever reason would like to remain anonymous or a new Armwrestler just starting out in the sport, you gain a degree of understanding which you currently seem to lack.

The governing body of World Armwrestling is the W.A.F. The World Armwrestling Federation, in Europe its the E.A.F. and in turn the U.K. has the B.A.F. and these are basically elected representatives either at domestic or international level respectively. All of them are 100% representative of the Armwrestlers whom Armwrestle within them and all follow a common set of rules and regulations enforced both inside and outside competition by the said Governing bodies at the appropriate level. All of these bodies are made up of volunteers who perform their specific function on an unpaid basis.

The Eurosport Show represents something totally different a private agreement / Enterprise relating to Professional Armwrestling promotion and is therefore non representative of and totally autonomous from, the above governing bodies both in terms of responsibilities, structure and regulatory system employed.

As Mark, rightly pointed out in a recent post each individual in Armwrestling around the World can freely select which events he or she competes in and Amateur Vs. Pro events represent Day vs Night in terms of the overall experience of competition. I would endorse this statement 100% and would / do encourage athletes to seek personal financial support from sponsors to cover expenses which I wish we were in a position to cover for them through the initiative which we have developed. I also actively seek to highlight ways in which Armwrestlers might approach sponsors and sell themselves to those sponsors by presenting the benefits that involvement in the shows can offer.

I will also correct you on a fundamental point regarding the ARM WARS Super Series in relation to the support offered, in that on numerous occasions I have personally funded the accommodation and food of the international, and where possible the UK athletes involved in the shows (at The Iron Curtain Event in a Four Star Country Hotel Fri to Monday) 50 Athletes !!! thats 25 rooms for 3 nights at a discount price I received of £125 per room per night (£9,375 for the rooms alone just in case your reaching for the calculator).

The Armwrestlers are treated like Athletes and have the opportunity to showcase their skills in some truly exceptional venues around the World in front of thousands of people as well as to a potentially massive International audience via the actual broadcast itself. As an Armwrestler myself I actually enjoy Armwrestling Gary, when I am able to grab a spare moment away from oganising and promoting the sport I like to spend time with my family and mate & Armwrestle, its what I do.

To date I have never been forced an athlete to attend any of the events, they are invited to compete and in my experience are usually very happy to have been invited and compete in this format in a televised event.

I would love to know who you are Gary but only so I can ensure that I never exploit you personally by inviting you to attend the ARM WARS Super Series event (don't worry mate I can assure you that you will definately remain unexploited by myself going forward, so you can rest easy on that score) that way we will both be happier I assume.

So in summary, its really not about "if its not OK to have a voice in Armwrestling" as you have stated above, its more about two things as follows :

1.) Its fine to have a voice, even a difference of opinion to everyone and anyone BUT at least have some justification for your statements, you speak as though you have a core specific understanding of the disparate elements involved in the structure of the Eurosport endeavour, when in fact you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Speaking purely personally now, when you have a voice and that voice is directed specifically at creating unwarranted issues for myself and the sport which I support, I will react.

2.) Armwrestling is a sport that is populated by Men & Women who respect courage and principles as much as a powerful Arm, I am and have always been happy to be weighed and measured by my peers based upon these considerations whilst your posts don't display any real degree of either, they are cloak and dagger Gary, misinformed at best or alternatively slanted, intentionally disruptive, garbage, aimed only at negativity and the promise of rebel rousing.

I know that, you certainly know that and thankfully I suspect that a number of my friends in the Armwrestling community are now becoming more and more aware of that fact too Gary118, thats because unlike yourself many of them have actually lived it and done it, not just heard about it, assumed a lot then made some stuff up and written about it, THATS A BIG BIG DIFFERENCE

Unlike yourself I don't hide my identity Gary, I am proud of and passionate about what I do, these men and women know me personally and know that they can approach me personally to discuss all elements of the sport and I will try to assist them where I can.

dan states a fair comment