Representation at worlds

andy / sussexarms wrote:

Moo has some good points  ive said to neil before about first aider  & got told  the ambulance station is down the road & if a aw break there arm nothing can be done  a part from phoning 999  but ive help a few aw out in the passed some im willing to be a first aider at any event that i can get to  

Absolutely we should have a qualified first aider, another point added to the agenda.

Dan me and my sister in the same room =double trouble ha

I've not been on here in donkeys - I had to put armwrestling on the back burner this year unfortunately (for a multitude of reasons), but great to FINALLY see something happening re: arranging a "proper" federation.

I've actually spoken to Neil about the "BAF issue" on the phone in the past, so given how that conversation went I'm a bit unsure of what is being proposed here and I'm obviously a bit out of the loop, though I've heard a bit about Worlds and what happened there.

Is Neil standing down from running BAF and is everyone is putting their ideas in a hat to get a new structure going, (because that is how it appears from this thread).

Or is everyone "telling" Neil they want changes and are trying to work something out with him re: a new structure? I won't comment with any detailed ideas 'till I understand the above as I'd be shooting in the dark.

One thing I totally agree with is it's a great idea to have anyone entering a BAF comp expected to be a member. I'd have personally joined but Neil told me it wasn't worth it given all you got was the discount at the time.

However, I would like to address one point; Paul you said Neil told you the BAF comps run at a loss.

I've attended loads of the BAF competitions from 2008-2013. With all those people paying £25-£30, and only giving out trophies, I can't see how you can possibly make a loss if you aren't paying anyone. At our first two Armageddon comps we had loads of paid for laid on food, a paid for venue, paid for prizes, metal engraved trophies, ref shirts with the ref names on and we still broke even overall, even factoring in a much lower turnout from UK pullers than we hoped for on the 2nd comp.

So I do not believe the BAF comps do not make money.

I also like Moo's suggestions  

Thanks Dan and Power for your comments! Us women do make practical sense! The fact I'm not personally affected too means I'm looking at the situation without the emotion that can affect judgement.

Dan - I could consider attending depending on date?

Also, only if Paul (mighty) would be happy with that (big sis wouldn't want to overstep the mark). However happy to add my thoughts based on personal experience to any other points you feel I may be able to assist with.

MIGHTY - ' double trouble' - you may be trouble - I am the quiet, calm, sensible one! X

When I took over the running of Leigh Pulling Power I said I would run it as a no profit club
I don't charge for training even though members have offered and I said NO my reward is seeing them lift a trophy
All my equipment is donated or self made and I intend it to stay that way
I love the sport and in my time as a trainer I have trained five British Champions four of them multiple and one World which I am proud of
If any of my team qualify for the Worlds and wanted to go I would try and fined the funds myself
I think if any money was pooled it would only go to some privileged few I know you say it wont happen but it does
I'm trying to draw people into the sport not chase them away
As for a first aider I have been one for around ten years and I think every club should have one or some sort of training
luckily I have never had to use it
I train how to wrestle safe and then how to win  

stan wrote:

When I took over the running of Leigh Pulling Power I said I would run it as a no profit club
I don't charge for training even though members have offered and I said NO my reward is seeing them lift a trophy
All my equipment is donated or self made and I intend it to stay that way
I love the sport and in my time as a trainer I have trained five British Champions four of them multiple and one World which I am proud of
If any of my team qualify for the Worlds and wanted to go I would try and fined the funds myself
I think if any money was pooled it would only go to some privileged few I know you say it wont happen but it does
I'm trying to draw people into the sport not chase them away
As for a first aider I have been one for around ten years  and I think every club should have one or some sort of training
luckily I have never had to use it
I train how to wrestle safe and then how to win    

I appreciate where you are coming from Stan, and this is why we are having the meeting, if we can vote for a committee and put in place a clear and transparent funding system then money will go where it should, which is back into the armwrestling community, either through sending a full team to Worlds and European or by funding tables to new or existing clubs. These would be long term goals but like all sports, not everyone gets to represent their country, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't pay there dues.

I have just implemented a £2 per week charge for the guys in my club, £2 per week per guy works out to about £650 per year, this money goes into a bank account and will be used to pay for the team to enter comps, or pay for hotels when we travel up to Garstang, even buy new equipment. And if one of the team qualifies for worlds/ europeans, we can use it to subsidise flights.

Leon wrote:

I've not been on here in donkeys - I had to put armwrestling on the back burner this year unfortunately (for a multitude of reasons), but great to FINALLY see something happening re: arranging a "proper" federation.

I've actually spoken to Neil about the "BAF issue" on the phone in the past, so given how that conversation went I'm a bit unsure of what is being proposed here and I'm obviously a bit out of the loop, though I've heard a bit about Worlds and what happened there.

Is Neil standing down from running BAF and is everyone is putting their ideas in a hat to get a new structure going, (because that is how it appears from this thread).

Or is everyone "telling" Neil they want changes and are trying to work something out with him re: a new structure? I won't comment with any detailed ideas 'till I understand the above as I'd be shooting in the dark.

One thing I totally agree with is it's a great idea to have anyone entering a BAF comp expected to be a member. I'd have personally joined but Neil told me it wasn't worth it given all you got was the discount at the time.

However, I would like to address one point; Paul you said Neil told you the BAF comps run at a loss.

I've attended loads of the BAF competitions from 2008-2013. With all those people paying £25-£30, and only giving out trophies, I can't see how you can possibly make a loss if you aren't paying anyone. At our first two Armageddon comps we had loads of paid for laid on food, a paid for venue, paid for prizes, metal engraved trophies, ref shirts with the ref names on and we still broke even overall, even factoring in a much lower turnout from UK pullers than we hoped for on the 2nd comp.

So I do not believe the BAF comps do not make money.

Hi Leon, we're looking to work with Neil rather than depose him. I would like to hear your thoughts.

Ok Dan.

Given what I have heard from pullers and read on here, and considering my own opinion, there's a lot which could be done to make things better for the average puller as well as team GB, the sport in general. People on this thread really seem to have issues with how BAF is run at the moment; all of which should be fixed before the idea of everyone being expected to shell out membership money to BAF is considered.

Trying to ostensibly improve the sport by expecting pullers to chuck money at it, without making the required fundamental changes would be wrong. Using the analogy of highly organised and respected combat sports in terms of justifying why everyone should start paying out ("because in those sports you have to") is great in principle but wrong for the place we are at - I believe most pullers will not agree to paying anything extra unless there are some radical changes made and they can see where their money goes.

I agree with Stan that any extra money collected / pooled right now would probably not be used fairly given the lack of a democratic structure and I wouldn't personally give membership money to a non-democratically run organisation, nor would I expect or encourage anyone else to. As people have pointed out, many countries have national federations which are run in a completely democratic way, I really don't see why we should be any different. I'm guessing that this might be part of why Scotland have decided to break away and start their own federation.

So what Moo said re: a structure is the right idea; if BAF is going to be taken more seriously and expect people to start putting money into it as well as entry fees at comps, it will need to be democratic, otherwise a lot of people are going to just keep pulling for fun and avoid the BAF comps, which is sadly what has been happening (hence the low turnouts people have been mentioning).

Without paraphrasing her too much, there needs to be an ELECTED president, secretary and treasurer, all with fixed terms (i.e. one year) and clearly defined roles regarding what they can do. As suggested there should be a committee with a representative from each club sitting on it. People can nominate themselves for the roles. Only after this is done should mandatory membership fees even be discussed imo.

Post this new structure, BAF comps should be run by the board as a whole; transparently and accounted for, with the accounts available every year for all BAF members to look at. If the comps run at a profit which I expect they will, the board can vote on paying referees / staff (or at least their costs) and putting the funds from the comps into promoting the sport in the UK at a grassroots level and putting on more comps, as well as covering team uniforms or whatever the board thinks is best, based on a majority vote of the committee, or the members for more major decisions. The club representatives will need to represent the views of their club on a majority basis also. The board could also vote on a few drug tests every year, which would keep costs down but mean there is an anti drugs policy in place which a lot of people seem to want. You cannot realistically drugs test someone for non illegal drugs when they haven't implicitly agreed not to use said drugs which is what I said to Neil when this was mooted before. But the membership rules could state which drugs are prohibited and then anyone joining agrees testing may occur.

I also have a few suggestions re: how the comps can be improved, things which are common to a lot of sports:

The seeding for the draw should be done randomly on a computer. You can get software to do this for under £5. It will also make it much faster.

Format - no byes after round one. At the comps there are byes after round one - it appears unfair and is not following a true double elimination format. You can easily set up a bracket where all the byes happen at the start, then no one gets one after that, eliminating any accusations of bias.

Weigh ins - should be done by an independent person, no secret weigh-ins allowed - advance weigh ins to be advertised in advance and held at the venue.

Refs - head ref should have the final call on matches, organiser of the competition should not be permitted or expected to interfere.

I could go on but that'll do for now.

I have said many times that we will be electing all positions, and that as a treasurer will be appointed and agm's scheduled, ALL accounts from revenue raised from membership and club fees aswell as all monies raised through comps will be available annually for every member of the federation to see.

One of my main points is that where memberships are collected, this could eliminate or drasticaly reduce entry fees to the 3 comps put on by the BAF (Novice, Nationals and New years cup)

Foreign nationals that belong to clubs should pay full entry fees as they will not be required to be members of the British federation.

Any clubs putting on comps have the choice of discounting to federation members or not.

Any profits raised through membership will be folded back into the federation, not into anyones pocket.

In my opinion, any profits left over from running a comp, after paying for refs, trophies, venue hire etc, will again be folded back into the federation.

I definitely agree that weigh ins should be done correctly, run by an impartial party and everyone must get weighed in at the designated venue and only at the times allocated.

Draws can be done with a cloth bag full of numbered balls or with randomising software.

Head ref should indeed have final say.

It is vital we get a full turnout for the meeting at the Novice in November, once the agenda is set it will be posted here and copies sent to anyone wanting one, voting can also be done by proxy for anyone unable to make the meeting

Ok guys - I'll stick my two penneth in again ...

Lots of points of view, lots of unresolved issues and a general desire to refine the structure of aw.
My opinion - no good dwelling on things that have already occurred if no-one stood up and spoke to Neil directly - rumour mill is just that unless issues are discussed openly.
First and foremost people have got to want to move forward - negativity is not going to move this sport forward.

I'd suggest that Dan (if you are orchestrating the discussions) proposes an agenda that is distributed to all members of the BAF and aw community via this forum or club leaders a few weeks in advance of the date of discussion, so that everyone feels they are included (accounts for those unable to attend) and ticking the open, transparent and equality boxes straight off. If it matters enough to you you will either attend the meeting or ensure that your thoughts are shared and e-mailed to Dan in advance of the meeting.

To ensure time is not wasted at the meeting I'd also suggest trying to set up a system that allows people to express an interest in taking a role (chair, treasurer or secretary) prior to the meeting. Once interested parties are established - votes or a poll could be set up either on this forum, if deemed appropriate or via an impartial route - I would offer to do this if you aw's are happy. The committee needs to be established before any items on the agenda are dealt with - don't expect to deal with everyone's issues in 1 meeting - prioritise - tackle those first.

Some of you are undoubtedly thinking ... Who is this interfering so and so and why does she think we should take on board what she has to say... Fair play!
1. I have no hidden agenda - yes I am Mighty's sister - but in no way does that impact on my views or desire to post or to assist if I can AND you don't have to care or take on board anything I have to say
2. I actually quite like armwrestling - far more interesting than most other mainstream sports - having an aw crazed brother doesn't help!
3. I am no aw expert but know how difficult it is to move forward positively when staring a committee and have experienced the pit falls along the way

Over the years, I have come to know a few of you and if the rest of you are as passionate and committed as my brother then it would be a sad and sorry state of affairs to let the sport you all love become divided, disjointed and disaffected by focusing on the what ifs, buts, whys and maybes's coz you never tried to do something about it.

Good luck guys - hope you get sorted!

I'm a bit confused Dan; please don't take offence here but you say you don't want to depose Neil and want to work with him, but you have decided we are going to have a vote for all the positions including chairman (which is what he would be).

Have you talked with Neil about any of this, or have you taken it upon yourself to organise a "coup" on behalf of everyone (seeing as people genuinely seem to want a change)? From the way you are wording things and saying "we" I take it beyond what's been said on this forum that there is a behind the scenes concencus between you and others who agree this is the way forward? If you can just roughly clarify all this that would be great.

Reading the rest of what you say it seems we are on the same page.

Moo, I haven't really seen anyone really "dwelling" on what's gone on in the past, and I'm one of the few people have personally aired grievances with Neil. However I think you need to be able to point out potential "issues" in the past to be able to move forward and identify what needs to change.

I totally agree with the rest of what you said and think it's a great idea. It would be a good idea for people to start voting on these issues well in advance of the meeting and people putting themselves forward. I think it's a given that whatever happens a democratic structure is needed, so that is the one thing which should be prioritised. Once this structure is in place the rest of the issues can be voted on, not everyone will get what they want but it'll be a great step in the right direction.

Leon wrote:

I'm a bit confused Dan; please don't take offence here but you say you don't want to depose Neil and want to work with him, but you have decided we are going to have a vote for all the positions including chairman (which is what he would be).

Have you talked with Neil about any of this, or have you taken it upon yourself to organise a "coup" on behalf of everyone (seeing as people genuinely seem to want a change)? From the way you are wording things and saying "we" I take it beyond what's been said on this forum that there is a behind the scenes concencus between you and others who agree this is the way forward? If you can just roughly clarify all this that would be great.

Reading the rest of what you say it seems we are on the same page.

Moo, I haven't really seen anyone really "dwelling" on what's gone on in the past, and I'm one of the few people have personally aired grievances with Neil. However I think you need to be able to point out potential "issues" in the past to be able to move forward and identify what needs to change.

I totally agree with the rest of what you said and think it's a great idea. It would be a good idea for people to start voting on these issues well in advance of the meeting and people putting themselves forward. I think it's a given that whatever happens a democratic structure is needed, so that is the one thing which should be prioritised. Once this structure is in place the rest of the issues can be voted on, not everyone will get what they want but it'll be a great step in the right direction.

Sorry for any confusion, I haven't had a chance to speak to Neil on this subject recently, but have done so in the past.

When I say we, i'm talking about the small handfull of guys I have spoken to and we're all in agreement that there is no need to have a new BAF president, that being said, to truly move forward there must be a vote for all positions of the committee, I personally will be nominating Neil and backing him if he choses to be considered to continue in his role.
I am most definately not trying to organise a coup, just putting my neck on the line by being the one to say what I would imagine the majority of people have wanted to say for a long time.
What prompted this post was a discussion at the Powerbeck training day a couple of weeks ago when I found out about the pullers having to pay for European and World entry fees despite none of them actually going to Europeans, Keith spoke to Neil about this not being right at worlds, and I have spoken to Keith a few times about this.

Cheers, makes sense now. So you're saying we should vote on who should be chairman but you'd support Neil should he nominate himself to do it (I don't think people normally nominate others, they have to put themselves forward), under the proviso he agrees to abide by the structure proposed and putting the money into baf as discussed here, correct?

If we (all members) was to pay £5 per month DD like Germany and other countries that would add up to roughly £3000 per year.

That's a rough guess going off attendance at Nationals.

As anyone got any feedback/info on how much for 3 medals or cups per weight class would cost to minus off the £3000.

Get some figures as to how much could be made to pay for National tracksuits for Worlds ? Costs?

i.e. 15 went to worlds if 20 went and per tracksuit was £50 that's £1000 Leaving £2000 is £100 to go to each of there plane flight costs.


I for one think its a great thing that all Armwrestlers should contribute at least a small fee per month to pay towards a structured National uniform for any of our Guys going to Worlds.

i will say now that i do not wish to be chair/treasurer/secretary
i would be on the committee tho if voted on.

i will say again i dont think radical changes need to be introduced,small changes over time.
i for one would be happy to have small medals to cut costs save pennys,people can say what they want about the trophys come cost for entry but this years british were awesome.

There needs to be agreement on structure and appointments first. Discussing policy and procedure framework (financial or otherwise) before the basic foundations are in place would be pretty pointless IMO.

It's sounds simple, and it is, but there has to be a core group of people (a committee) that have the time, knowledge and energy to see it through. This committee should ideally be self nominated and democratically appointed by their peers.

I find it strange that Neil is not involved in this discussion given that he is the current president of BAF. In any case, this dialogue is healthy and much needed IMO to grow AW in the UK.

Dear Armwrestlers,

Whilst I've been in the U.S. for the ARM WARS "VENGEANCE" event, a thread was started on here, which has clearly lead to some in depth debate relating to the best future for BAF.

Since 1998 I've devoted my time, money & efforts trying to assist & promote Amatuer Tournament Armwrestling in the UK, however having read the thread this evening (after having received calls from Keith Taylor & Dan Thomas, two good men whom I have a lot of time for) & with aspersions once again being cast, by certain individuals, in relation to my personal integrity. I've decided to step down from my position as BAF President with immediate effect.

I will continue to offer my support for British Armwrestling in a non official, competitive capacity wherever possible & I will continue to Promote the Professional Super Series both domestically & internationally via IRON ARM U.K. & the ARM WARS Super Series.

I'd just like to personally thank all those who have supported British Armwrestling during the years in which I have represented our domestic Amatuer Armwrestling circuit. If the majority of Armwrestlers would like me to represent them as BAF President going forward, then I'd be willing to do so but to be honest I've grown extremely frustrated & tired of having my character & sentiments questioned by certain sections of the Armwrestling community & would welcome greater legitimacy in the role if I was to assume it going forward.

Very best of luck with taking things forward in the manner in which you want to guys, my advice would be look to develop the individual Regions so that they flourish & grow.

It is wrong that THE ARMWRESTLERS themselves should be expected to pay for all the disparate elements required to facilitate international representation of their countries. The only way in which decent sponsorship can & will be attracted is via significantly increasing the numbers of competitors & spectators involved

Regards

Neil

hi neil im sorry to here your stepping down . i think the thread was suppost to get armwrestlers to try to pull together to help you not to under mind you . i may be wrong if so maybe people should say i think maybe its got people confussed and you upset which i dont think it was dans intenstion but away to help and maybe people should have talk to you first but what do i now ive only been armwrestling for 2 years

just back in from the club and thought id check in!! bloody hell this is like an episode of eastenders everyone is so uptight!!! took me nearly an hour to read all this after a few but couldnt help it!!! i should stick to watching arm wrestling youtube!!!

look to all the lads sorry if I made any of the guys who like doing the foreign trips a bad rap, but theres paying your dues and then theres proposing an idea which sounds like itd lighten everyone elses wallets and fill theres!!! but what do i know i only train in the gym and fly overseas to watch sport not to play it!!

ok dan pal, my names mark and weve not met properly yet even though i think i talked to you at the bodypower expo on a stand with some really muscular guy??? but liability insurance in place? well at venues ive worked in they often have it in place to cover events of all sorts. i didnt mean to put your nose out of joint seeing as this is your baby but i have pretty strong opinions which i should keep to myself!! and sorry you comp wasnt a goer as i was looking forward to having a go and not having to drive 200 miles!!! i did read all what you put again and youve got a good set of ideas mate ill give you that and it seems everyone is coming up behind you here so well done!!!

and sorry if i upset you neil as you seem to have been upset by me as well as the mutinious dan!!! that is a joke!!! as i said to dan ive been in on organising a fair load of events on in my time and while you might have paid your dues and be able to armwrestle me under the table judging by your tv performances t if you are shelling out £2500 for those trophies and that venue in the middle of nowhere then perhaps someone with a bit more common should take a turn at steering the ship BAF!!!

Hi Reaver / Mark, I'm not upset by Dan, I like Dan Thomas he is a great bloke.

I think the first thing that you need to do is get a new calculator as I don't know where your numbers come from, if there had been £2,500 made from entry fees at the British then there wouldn't have been a shortfall.

Please send me your number by PM also as I want to buy my Trophies off you too. I have never been able to get that spec of Trophies at £3 a piece before, so more than happy for you to buy them make a couple of quid off them from me & I will buy them from you. With all your common sense, I'm suprised you haven't already set that up.

Just to clarify things I am not upset, why would I be upset ? I put in a lot of work organising events annually taking time from my family for no money or benefit whatsoever !? your logic seems to be as accurate as your maths Mark.

Anyway thanks Mark.

Focussing back on topic, BAF stands for British Armwrestling Federation. It is not a power centre of any description, it never has been nor should it be.

The Regional clubs & organisations should be developed to assist in creating a Stronger National circuit. The issue has been, that this is not & has not been happening in all but a select few cases. The BAF follows the rules & regulations of the EAF & WAF, it always has.

Build your own Regions & by doing so this will create a larger & stronger National Amatuer Championship.

Oh one last point the situation which manifested itself at this years WAF & EAF Championships will be consistent going forward, ie. REGARDLESS of whether or not anyone from Great Britain (& now Scotland) attends the EAF Europeans & WAF Worlds both governing bodies will be required to pay the annual fee's of €200 (EAF) & $300 (WAF). If these fees are not paid unfortunately no athletes from either Country will be allowed to participate in either the European or the World Championships.

If this is going to turn into a thread were neil has to defend himself for any reason i will take no further part in anything going forward,this is not a witch hunt and i will not be part of it.

nothing but positive feedback should be brought to the table NEGATIVITY is not welcome

Dan you wanted points to bring up at the meeting mine are made public please copy and paste to your agenda sheet

1.Neil to remain in the chair (atleast for now if he wishes has his experience is invaluable)
2.A list of nominees to be complied to discuss a committee (2 from the south,2 from the midlands,2 from the north)
3.once the people have voted in a committee, should any matters be discussed in improving BAF such has revenue etc


personal things i would like to see should be disregarded until the matters above are resolved then and only then can we work together to build all aspects of armwrestling

this is all RIDICULOUS, to be honest I couldn't give 2 shits who is running BAF as long as we all get to wrestle, meant to be helping and supporting eachother, yes what happened at the worlds wasn't good and yes we need some changes, changes are possible. a simple phone call or PM to neil discussing the problems BEFORE posts were made wouldn't have gone a miss, then a meeting could have been arranged without him stepping down first, he must be devastated his been running BAF for 15 years and stepped down with immediate effect, whats the bets half the people who commented on this post will have fuck all to say to neil in person, ive read all through this and theres a couple of people (my opinion) who really haven't got the foggiest, just getting involved to be apart of it, im not saying I know all the ins and outs because I don't, but come on it could have been done a different way, some very well thought and planned ideas im looking forward to hearing in person tho, all we need is structure, regular competitions in britian and making sure we all support eachother, cheaper entry fees and good locations will attract more people

this topic aint going to really attrack anyone to british armwrestling is it, its just broadcasting how much of a mess were in.

like I said tho I couldn't care less who is running BAF or what ever, I just want to keep my club hungry and training hard

           

I think it's sad for everyone that it's had to come to this. Given the guys who instigated this debate are apparently good mates with Neil, I'm still surprised this wasn't talked over with him off forum or at least by phone as it's understandably not what you'd want to read after coming back from the USA.

But this aside, I don't think so many known pullers would have chimed in with their similar ideas had this not been what people generally wanted to see happen, and that realistically, Dan has probably done everyone a favour. If the other option was doing nothing, having everyone moaning and complaining to each other yet pretending to Neil all is fine and dandy and never speaking up then it's a no-brainer. I talked with Neil a few years ago about these issues by phone so he knows I think we need a democratic BAF with a committee and elected members. That said, I can understand why it hasn't been run that way up to now and I can appreciate that it's probably a relatively thankless task.

On the upside it looks like everything is going in the right direction now, which is some good news at least. I agree with what Neil says about developing the domestic circuit by putting on more competitions, which is what we have been doing with the comps we ran under the Amageddon banner.