Michael Todd & Allen Fisher are not world champions...

I hear a lot of people saying and being introduced as a 'world champion' when they've never won a WAF world title.

Micheal Todd and Allen Fisher are great guys and respect to them both. That being said, Michael has only won the world wristwrestling championships and the ArmWars world title and Allen Fisher has only won the world wristwrestling championships.... Neither have ever won a WAF world title (please correct me if I'm wrong).

What defines a 'world champion'?

The WAF isn't the defininitive be all end all championships, in the same way that boxing has it's many different organisations. Also Mike is now the Intercontinental PAL world champ after beating Pushkar in Vegas.
And correct me if i'm wrong but did you not refer to yourself as a world champ after beating Roman in the PAC event?! No offence mate.

dan wrote:

The WAF isn't the defininitive be all end all championships, in the same way that boxing has it's many different organisations. Also Mike is now the Intercontinental PAL world champ after beating Pushkar in Vegas.
And correct me if i'm wrong but did you not refer to yourself as a world champ after beating Roman in the PAC event?! No offence mate.

Yes I sometimes do because I won the Professional Armwrestling Conference world Armwrestling championships (formerly the world Wristwrestling championships) and because of what I mentioned above.

Are you saying that if these guys are world champions then so am I?

Yes there are many world championships etc like boxing but is it good for the sport to recognise all these and where does it stop... Who says which one is acceptable to call someone a world champion if they win?

Yes, you won a world title in a different organisation, it doesn't diminish your acheivment because it wasn't WAF

ArmWars, PAL UAL etc are all legitimate organisations and are truely international, meaning that yes a win makes you a world champ in that organisation only.
It doesn't matter if some Voevoda lover doesn't count your victory for what it is, who's going to tell Igor that his organisation can't produce legit world champs and the same to Neil. I'd also like to meet the guy that tells Mike he has phoney world titles that don't count for anything because it wasn't won at the WAF world championships, (remebmer it is classed as an amateur competition)
Your title at the PAC counts as it was an international, professional tournament, i was merely pointing out that by your logic of Mike and Allen not being WAF world champs, then you can't call yourself one too as you never won a gold at WAF.

dan wrote:

...i was merely pointing out that by your logic of Mike and Allen not being WAF world champs, then you can't call yourself one too as you never won a gold at WAF.

I completely agree Dan and no offence taken at all.

If im honest I don't think what I won was a legit 'world title' at all and I only use it for marketing purposes because I did technically win a 'world championship'.

Neil has said before that I have never won a world title and he's also said that Rod has never won a world title (he won the other version of the WAF many years ago).

My argument is if winners of the PAL, ArmWars, UAL etc are considered 'world champions' then why not PAC, WWC and other WAF? Surely there's a line in the sand and a definition?

Perhaps then, seeing as WAF is the governing body for armwrestling, a claim of world champion can only come from winning gold at a WAF worlds, wins in other organisations should be introduced as such,
eg; PAL world champ, or ArmWars world champ, that way it clears any confusion up.
Much the same way as a boxer says that he is WBO or WBC world champ and not just world boxing champion.
Any one can run a comp and claim to have world champions, the only difference is how seriously people take it and how strong is the organisation.
I personally think the WAF is losing some face, with too much politics preventing progression and a seemingly head in sand attitude to doing what is needed to push the sport onto the big stage (Olympics!)
A WAF title would be awesome, but an Olympic one would be better.

dan wrote:

Perhaps then, seeing as WAF is the governing body for armwrestling, a claim of world champion can only come from winning gold at a WAF worlds, wins in other organisations should be introduced as such,
eg; PAL world champ, or ArmWars world champ, that way it clears any confusion up. 
Much the same way as a boxer says that he is WBO or WBC world champ and not just world boxing champion.

I completely agree Dan!

The comparison with boxing is only half accurate, as WBO/WBC/IBF/... all use the 12 round format and same rules (all be it with slight variations). This makes unification bouts possible. WAF/Armwars/... have different format & rules, so not actually that comparible.

I'd say that you should only be annouced as, or refer to yourself as 'World Champion' if you are the current/reigning champion. This is regardless of the format & rules.

Anthony wrote:

The comparison with boxing is only half accurate, as WBO/WBC/IBF/... all use the 12 round format and same rules (all be it with slight variations). This makes unification bouts possible. WAF/Armwars/... have different format & rules, so not actually that comparible.

I'd say that you should only be annouced as, or refer to yourself as 'World Champion' if you are the current/reigning champion. This is regardless of the format & rules.

Does that mean I can set up an organisation and start calling the champions world champions?

WAF is the only main draw comp that warrants a proper world title name,its seen as all to be the one and all of us have to adear to its rules so for me this makes it the only main draw contest to call world champion

6 rounds format is diffrent there are 2 main noticed 6 round formats Armwars and PAL which has world champions in the same round systems altho diffrent rules its sort of bell can save a fighter or it cant,these two are holding most of the current top guys in the world as champions and i think we would to be hard pushed to try and dispute them as being such,thats why Neil i think always shouts them in as Armwars world champions not world champions unless they have won WAF has i no he has strong views on this matter after winning 2 WAF titles himself and 1 from the other org i think which he doesnt class am i right?

People like Alan Fisher are very much respected for there long life span in the sport and have pulled when there wasnt many countries to pull against so the orgs they pulled in at the time were given lots of respect so there will always be a dispute but i wouldnt tell Alan he isnt seen the side hit on that man

Steve Kirlew wrote:

Anthony wrote:

The comparison with boxing is only half accurate, as WBO/WBC/IBF/... all use the 12 round format and same rules (all be it with slight variations). This makes unification bouts possible. WAF/Armwars/... have different format & rules, so not actually that comparible.

I'd say that you should only be annouced as, or refer to yourself as 'World Champion' if you are the current/reigning champion. This is regardless of the format & rules.

Does that mean I can set up an organisation and start calling the champions world champions?

You could, but I guess it's about credability. Anybody could host an event and call the 'world ...... championships', win it and then claim to be a world champion, but it means next to nothing.

I think that's what you were driving at anyway with this thread.

However; I strongly believe that in any sport, at any level, half the battle is turning up and competing. ALL competitors derserve respect for having the bollocks to do it in the first place and generaly the champions are the ones with the most desire to win!

I think the 'line in the sand' is where you want to draw it… and what your conscience will allow you to believe…

What you also have to bear in mind is that every other weekend in America has a 'World Chumpionships'… not just in armwrestling as Dan pointed out - it's kind of their way of life to strive to be the best in the world - even if it is in a bar in Idaho with 4 competitors…

That said you cant take anything away from Alan and Mike in the achievements and legacy they will leave…
Mike battled in the 80Kg class at the legit World Championships for many years… and was even then world class…
Alan i'm not too sure about - his list of world championships is around 150 i think the lat time i checked… but again ALan Fisher is a beast and legend – he no doubt would have been up there on many occassions of the 76 years he's been competing!

Taking the American ethos of life out of the equation – it comes back I think to your beliefs and conscience…

Steve has already pointed out that he knows that the tournament he won wasnt anything like a World's! But uses the 'accolade' to bull himself up for marketing purposes - you cant really grumble at that…
It may ruffle a few feathers here and there – but hey. Some people in that position would tattoo that sh!t all over their forehead – jumping at the chance to claim some kind of recognition.

The WAF tournaments are the ONLY recognised and true world championship titles for the amateur sport - I'm guessing the real question here is what is the amateur sport and what is 'professional'?

Getting paid to attend?
Prize money?
Super modified classes?

At the end of the day we all know who deserves the titles they have won - or not - some guys are lifetime also-rans does that make them less of an armwrestler?

World Champions–
Neil
Elaine
Steve
Sue

All competed at WAF world chapionships - battled through LARGE weightclasses and won.

End of.



When it comes tothe professional leagues - ArmWars, PAL, NAL etc…
Champions are champions - and we all know (i hope) that these guys could probably mix it up with the WAF champions if they're not already in the organisation…
and if not that supermatch would probably be made anyway!

To sum up; There's WAF and there's Pro-League – both the same sport with slight difference in format! Armwrestlers know armwrestlers and know who's the man or the pony.


con·science   [kon-shuhns]
noun
1. the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives.


Regards
Andy Barker
2 time World Silver Medalist
7 time World brew-match champion

Hi Stephen,

It is an interesting thread mate & I think Dan, Anthony and Paul ( & it appears whilst I have been writing this, Wise) have all already made good points some of which I will embellish here.

Some key criteria to focus on, are as follows :

Q.) What exactly is meant by “World Champion” - does the Title of W.A.F. World Champion mean that an athlete is unquestionably THE BEST Armwrestler in their weight class on the Planet ?

A.) Well, possibly yes, certainly in some cases that athlete MAY BE one and the same thing BUT NOT NECESSARILY. In my experience having held the W.A.F. World Championship Title twice consecutively (& yes Paul you were right, another one I don’t count) I actually believe that ULTIMATELY it means that an athlete is UNQUESTIONABLY WORLD CLASS at that point in time, in that specific format of Armwrestling. Another way of defining it honestly I feel, would be that the Reigning W.A.F. World Champion is certainly very close to the Benchmark level (i.e. he or she is solidly representative) of the VERY BEST Armwrestlers in the World in that weight class, in that format of Armwrestling, at that point in time.

Q.) What affords a World Championship Title Legitimacy – I would suggest that two immediate fundamental requirements are 1.) International Athlete participation which is truly representative of encompassing the Majority of the Worlds Top Armwrestling Nations and 2.) the participation of World Class Elite level athletes and by Elite level I am referring to National Champions and Silver Medallists being the minimum qualification (as per the specified requirement by the letter of the Law for National Representation at the W.A.F. Worlds).
ARM WARS as of right now, EASILY encompasses the widest array of International competitors of ANY Professional Format event, having utilized National Champions and Overall Champions from more than 35 Countries since 2008 – FACT.
Within both ARM WARS & P.A.L. Vendetta events Numerous W.A.F. World Champions compete and have both won & lost on numerous occasions. Within ARM WARS examples include – Bagent, Bath, Amolins, Taynov, Ivanov, Backmann, Andersson – ALL Reigning W.A.F. World Champions at their time of involvement. Likewise with P.A.L. Liliev, Kostadinov, Pushkar - ALL Reigning W.A.F. World Champions at their time of involvement.
I think that when assessing this question the Armwrestling World is well aware of which Titles hold Legitimacy and afford Kudos accordingly – hence that which is afforded to ARM WARS & P.A.L. Vendetta Belt Holders. The easiest manner in which to solve this within your own mind is simply to try to name ANYONE who is clearly better than the organisations Champion under a consistent Format of competition. Devon Larratt’s recent schooling of Krasi Kostadinov (Reigning W.A.F. World Champion) whilst falling within THE SAME WEIGH CLASS AT W.A.F. suggests that the ARM WARS World Title has justification as Legitimate if anyone feels that this “Fresh for Fresh” specifically orchestrated “1 on 1” encounter doesn’t count as its officially outside of competition then fair enough….does “MONSTER” Michael Todd’s DESIMATION of the Multiple Defending W.A.F. Super-Heavyweight Champion of the World 6 – 0 in Vegas do the Trick !!!? I THINK IT DOES.


Consistency of Format is a Fundamental Consideration – Main Draw Format Armwrestling (i.e. W.A.F. or Nemiroff World Cup) & Multiple Round Professional Format Armwrestling (i.e. ARM WARS or P.A.L. Vendetta) are totally different animals – FACT. Anyone who has experienced these two formats will testify to the clear contrasts. Pro Format is the PUREST test of one athlete Vs. one athlete whilst some would argue that the W.A.F. Champion remains the HARDEST title in the World to Win due to the enormity of variables that an athlete has to overcome in order to tilt this Title ALL on a single day. I clearly GET both schools of thought and have lived them fully and completely I believe.

For example I would say that Nemiroff World Cup Champion is NOT the true World Champion BUT is rather an unquestionably Elite World level Armwrestler ! WHY because the W.A.F. is THE toughest test in the World currently AVAILABLE IN A CONSISTENT FORMAT. Both are Main Draw Format and W.A.F. is clearly far more Internationally representative than Nemiroff World Cup with larger Deeper Classes.

I WOULD ARGUE that ARM WARS Champion of the World particularly in the Heavyweight & Super-Heavyweight categories is CLEARLY representative of THE TOUGHEST TITLE to Win in the Professional Format of Armwrestling competition.

That said therefore is Allen Fisher a Legitimate World Champion ? in my opinion NO !

WHY !? because despite THE LIKELIHOOD that he has enjoyed periods of his exceptional career when he was good enough to have been one, he did NOT Win W.A.F. and his titles were earned in the same Main Draw format of Competition.

Is Michael Todd a World Champion, in my opinion ABSOLUTELY, YES !

WHY !? because his Title was achieved in the MOST DIFFICULT AVAILABLE field within THAT SPECIFIC FORMAT OF ARMWRESTLING COMPETITION and against truly THE MOST ELITE LEVEL International Athletes in the World at that time. IF NOT THEN SHOW ME WHO THE MAN HAS GOTTA BEAT (beware however as my Buddies Igor & Asen did that with Andre "THE PAIN TRAIN" & well.......lets just say that, it appears its a case of BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR )

Before ANYONE ASKS……………….YES I DO BELIEVE JOHN “THE G.O.A.T” IS LEGITIMATE TOO ...........as incidentally were ALL 7 of Wise's Brew Match Titles !!!

Cheers

Neil

Haha I wondered when you would throw in your £30 pal haha

Brew matches lmao

Brew Matches go down as elite testing grounds of balls and outright man-upmanship!

I was going to go into the legitimacy of the one they call 'John' – but held back for someone to start the ball rolling…

I'm not too sure on my facts here, but i think that that John guy has only won ONE more World title than me! I mean come on!!!

Thinking about it I have DOUBLE the amount of World Medals than him too - What a BUM that guy is


–

Could I surmise that ArmWars vs WAF is comparable to other sports having World Championships then an Olympic competition too…?

In armwrestling at the Olympics there'd be different guys due to the wider weight classes that would win that title over the WAF and ArmWars 'best in the world' title holders…

–

Going back to the original question; and to pick up a point that Neil brought up, in a few cases in ArmWars the 'pro' champion has competed (and beat) the current WAF champion - this could be demonstrated in other ArmWars divisions if the WAF champions were 'fitting' to the ArmWars model - ie. Not as dull as very strong dishwater!
This further highlights the differences between WAF and the Pro-leagues… One is business like with the honour and the title at stake (for whatever that is worth?) against another side of the sport which is as equally as serious, but with that element of 'entertainment'!

In this day and age, do you really have to be the best of the best - or just good enough with enough 'show' to draw in fans and support? Take the UFC as the example… not all those guys are the best of the best - but holy-shit they better bring their A-game to the Octagon/press conferences etc… or they're out on their ass…

Times are a changing, and ArmWars/TV is the future bitches!!
Decorate your trophy cabinet as much as you want - you dont bring those medals to the ArmWars stage - it starts and ends with what you leave on the table infront of the cameras. Booya!

KING EDWARD wrote:

Q.) What exactly is meant by “World Champion” - does the Title of W.A.F. World Champion mean that an athlete is unquestionably THE BEST Armwrestler in their weight class on the Planet ?  

World champion means that they win that given competition on that given day in that given format.
True that the best don't always win like in the Olympics..

KING EDWARD wrote:

For example I would say that Nemiroff World Cup Champion is NOT the true World Champion BUT is rather an unquestionably Elite World level Armwrestler ! WHY because the W.A.F. is THE toughest test in the World currently AVAILABLE IN A CONSISTENT FORMAT. Both are Main Draw Format and W.A.F. is clearly far more Internationally representative than Nemiroff World Cup with larger Deeper Classes.

Makes sense that because they are both different formats there can be 2 world champions... Does that mean PAL Vendetta winners are not world champions because ArmWars is the tougher of the two and they are both the same format competition?

KING EDWARD wrote:

Is Michael Todd a World Champion, in my opinion ABSOLUTELY, YES !

WHY !? because his Title was achieved in the MOST DIFFICULT AVAILABLE field within THAT SPECIFIC FORMAT OF ARMWRESTLING COMPETITION and against truly THE MOST ELITE LEVEL International Athletes in the World at that time. IF NOT THEN SHOW ME WHO THE MAN HAS GOTTA BEAT (beware however as my Buddies Igor & Asen did that with Andre "THE PAIN TRAIN" & well.......lets just say that, it appears its a case of BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR    )

I'd like to see Todd against Yoshi Kanai again because the last time I saw this Yoshi schooled him...

Also how come Yoshi didn't get a shot at the world title?

Yoshi snapped his bicep tendon Ste or maybe he would have had the chance,altho Micheal Todd has increased since his last battle with Yoshi so much so he beat the current WAF world champion 6-0

As for PAL the level isnt higher and certainlty isnt lower they just tend to use the same pullers and only the top pullers which to some may appear to be of a higher level,the level is around the same at the highest level as anyone of the top 6 could swing it on the day.

You won a event called world championship pal so you was a pac world champion nobody can take that away from you,it wasnt your fault that roman pulled 4 or 5 classes you won but it wasnt WAF you won so i think you no the rest,that being said i think that at 65kg you had the chance to be world champion and still do,added weight doesnt seem to have given you the power increase your potential has i think to be a world force like myself and others your weight needs to be lighter just my £8 worth

paul maiden wrote:

Yoshi snapped his bicep tendon Ste or maybe he would have had the chance,altho Micheal Todd has increased since his last battle with Yoshi so much so he beat the current WAF world champion 6-0

As for PAL the level isnt higher and certainlty isnt lower they just tend to use the same pullers and only the top pullers which to some may appear to be of a higher level,the level is around the same at the highest level as anyone of the top 6 could swing it on the day.

You won a event called world championship pal so you was a pac world champion nobody can take that away from you,it wasnt your fault that roman pulled 4 or 5 classes you won but it wasnt WAF you won so i think you no the rest,that being said i think that at 65kg you had the chance to be world champion and still do,added weight doesnt seem to have given you the power increase your potential has i think to be a world force like myself and others your weight needs to be lighter just my £8 worth

I'm not trying to say Michael isn't one of the best armwrestlers in the world or even worthy of his world title necessarily (I know the title of the thread says otherwise) as long as there's a clear definition of what a world champion is and which organisations can legitimately hand them out.. Neil's given a good explanation of this (thanks Neil).

Paul, like Andy said, the USA call everything and anything a world championship even if it's only been a few people attending from a small town in Idaho... The PAC event was a prestigious event with the likes of Brzenk, Roman and Craig attending (incidentally Craig took 4th in the class Roman won) but WAS NOT A LEGITIMATE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP and therefore they cannot simply hand out a 'world title' because they choose too.

My point in this thread really is that just because a competition is called a world championship doesn't mean it can hand out legitimate world titles.. There are other criteria to consider which Neil has explained (I'd still like to hear his thoughts on the 2 super match format world titles...).

The WAF world title is not the only legit world title (which I previously considered it to be and was against other world titles and organisations handing the title 'world champ' out) but the title cannot be banded around loosely and needs boundaries like has been outlined.