Representation at worlds

First up, i want to make it clear that this post is in no way an attempt to disparrage the efforts of Neil who does so much for armwrestling in the UK, but more to promote discussion on the best ways we as a nation can get together to help improve the turn out for nationals and worlds/ european teams.

My first point of discussion is helping ease the burden on the BAF (Neil)

I am a firm beleiver that we should not, as armwrestlers pay for the team registration fees for either Worlds or Europeans or team kit. Athlete registration fees yes but not team fees or team shirts.
Team registartion and kit should be paid for by the federation with funds raised by athlete mebership fees.

My proposal is that every British puller that wants to compete at any BAF sanctioned event must be paid up members of the federation with mebership costing £10 per month per person. There are between 50-100 British pullers at the moment, possibly more which means revenues of £6000-£12000 per year being raised. NO athlete would be eligable to compete at nationals or represent the team at worlds or Europeans unless they are a paid up member.

Further to this I beleive that all teams that wish to compete must pay an annual registration fee to the federation of no more than £150 per year, this would generate a further £900-£1500 per annum or more.
Also all registered clubs must provide 1 referee for nationals, who must have passed a qualification exam.
And must hold at least 1 BAF sanctioned comp per year with a novice and open class.

There are two main events on the BAF callender, the new years cup which could be used as the qualifier for Europeans and the Nationals which MUST be attended if you want to go to Worlds.
There should be no entry fee for either of these events, or minimal, at least no more than £10
Funds raised with my proposed ideas would then be used to pay for the running of Nationals/ New year cup including trophies and paying referees and officials to run weigh ins and scoring, then to provide kit for the national team.
The money can also be used to provide refs for all BAF sanctioned competitions.

I truly feel that as a country we need to do more to promote the sport, rather than just relying on Neil to do it all either from his own time or money.

My second point of discusssion.

With the news that Scotland are now registered as a separate nation with the WAF and EAF, does this mean that we should now register England as a nation in it's own right or change the BAF to the English and Northern Irish Armwrestling Federation, with our nationals only being open to English and Northern Irish pullers?
Does this mean that Scottish pullers can't contest the British nationals, or represent Britain at worlds?

From what I have been told, WAF were calling for the team to be called England or the United Kingdom on the basis that we can't be Britain anymore as Scotland is now standing apart, despite the fact that the Scottish guys hold British passports.

I can't understand the need to register Scotland as a separate nation as this could potentially further dilute what is already a poorly attended British championships, and it's not as if there are hundreds of Scottish pullers contesting events north of the border.

Good Points raised their Dan !!!

But Alot of Guys that cant afford to go worlds 4 times out of 5 years e.g. regardless of if they are good enough at their respective weight class, will be naffed and put off armwrestling due to paying extra money every year which is taxing them to pull a few comps per year.

Dont get me wrong I for one am interested in putting Britain forward and improving as a nation. But will it reduce armwrestlers numbers in UK. ?

As for United Kingdom/Scotland ? Need some Input from Scots about how they feel on this subject.

As for teams with refs ? Some teams are very few in numbers and to pay an extra £150 ? As first subject above.

I like the idea of paying £5 a month this would greatly help to build a team for future team events without the worry of finding money for hotels etc
i would gladly pay this but in order to do this we need to create a treasury etc to do it.

things can always be improved thats part of evolution and to relay on Neil or any other single person isnt very fair,Dan if you would like to set up a account i will start paying asap,but before we do we would need to discuss this amongst everybody to see if there would be a unity.

i would also like the money to be used for doping tests which is long over due all this would be possible with your idea well done Dan

Has for the Scottish team its a difficult situation to approach this would need to be done in a room sat together to see the best solution

Dave Shaw wrote:

Good Points raised their Dan !!!

But Alot of Guys that cant afford to go worlds 4 times out of 5 years e.g. regardless of if they are good enough at their respective weight class, will be naffed and put off armwrestling due to paying extra money every year which is taxing them to pull a few comps per year.

Dont get me wrong I for one am interested in putting Britain forward and improving as a nation. But will it reduce armwrestlers numbers in UK. ?

As for United Kingdom/Scotland ? Need some Input from Scots about how they feel on this subject.

As for teams with refs ? Some teams are very few in numbers and to pay an extra £150 ? As first subject above.

Dave if people are passionate about the sport they would accept to pay this at £5 its 0.12p a day about £2.78 cheaper than the average bacon butty or pint alot take for granted part of the trouble is in this country people will always disagree.
i think we should reform a committee and if people dont abide by the rules like every other organisation etc they should be let in the gutter JMO

I spoke to Keith on the phone about this and he agrees, he also told me about the new doping protocols for worlds next year where the top 3 from every class gets tested, any team found to be fielding 2 or more athletes will be fined $100000. This much money would completely banckrupt a national federation so testing will have to be implemented at national level to avoid this happening.

With this in mind, i really don't think £5-10 per month per person, £5 for juniors £10 for seniors would be too much.
However maybe a sliding scale could be applied for club registration, fees would vary depending on size of club, for example
£50 for teams of 2-5
£100 for teams of 6-10
£150 for teams of 11+

At the end of the day, armwrestling is a sport the same as any other and should be structured the same way.
Take for example, a martial arts club, the club has to pay a registration fee to the governing body of that particular martial art, then they have to pay a hire charge for their dojo, and possibly pay instructors too, these costs are recouperated by members having to pay mat fees to the club, the member also has to pay a licence fee to the governing body, which covers their insurance, otherwise they cannot train or compete.
This is how things need to be for armwrestling.
Neil gives up a lot of his time and money to run things, often without thanks and more often with a lot of complaining from the aw community. Keith, Paul and I gave up a large amount of our day to ref the nationals off our own backs so everyone could have a comp, if anyone doesn't feel they should have to pay to be part of a federation that is run off the back of someone elses time, money and effort, then perhaps they should stop pulling.

We need to have a BAF congress meeting with a representitive from each club coming so we can discuss all points and put them to a vote. Anyone not in attendance will have no say in any decisions made.

Rampage after the event would be a perfect place for this,every club will be represented so bring any agenda you think is positive

Great ideas coming forward, I agree and think we need everyone come together to make the sport grow and see the armwrestling level in england/GB raised. £5 is nothing and the more pullers jump on board the more things will changes for the better.

hi i think the club reg fee are fair on the slider scale but i think the month personal fee should be £5 as some armwrestlers may not be able to afford £10 a month it would be better to be getting £5 a month than to loss some armwrestlers & to put off new armwrestlers also maybe the all clubs meeting could be done on internet chat or conference calling then a full meeting on a baf comp ie novice or pro championships

Hi Dan

Some really great points raised and ones which we are currently battling out amongst the Scottish armwrestlers regarding annual subscriptions and registrations. This is something I think that is imperative to resolve for the future of the sport and would be interested in suggestions.

Regarding the topic of Scotland registering as a separate nation with WAF and EAF, it's only fair that we explain out motive for this move to our fellow British pullers.

Scotland is one of the only 6 countries to compete in every commonwealth games since the first empire games in 1930 (Wales and England) also.

So this history of competing as a separate nation from our fellow British counterparts was one motivation.

Scotland could have its own Olympic team for 2016 Rio games if the country votes for independence next year.

Politics aside, Scottish armwrestlers are keen for the continual growth of the sport and in our mind, if Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales register as individual nations, we are providing the potential for many more British Armwrestlers to travel and compete in high end tournaments such as the European and the worlds.

Not only does this increase the possibility of Britain bringing back more medals via its respective nations but gives more armwrestlers a chance at pulling at a higher level, gaining valuable experience an keeping their passion alight.
Regarding national competitions. We do not wish to dilute the current British national.

Scotland will be holding their own Scottish National. In some respects we thought that if each nation holds their own "closed" national and then come together to a British national pulling 4 nations together, therefore any concern regarding the dilution of the current participation at the British nationals would hopefully be in valid.
I hope this post answers some of the questions surrounding our move and we are happy to answer more.

We are hopeful that all athletes will understand and continue to support us.

Jordan

andy / sussexarms wrote:

hi i think the club reg fee are fair on the slider scale but i think the month personal fee should be £5 as some armwrestlers may not be able to afford £10 a month it would be better to be getting £5 a month than to loss some armwrestlers & to put off new armwrestlers also maybe the all clubs meeting could be done on internet chat or conference calling then a full meeting on a baf comp ie novice or pro championships

The German armwrestlers pay 20 Euros a month, their team is very well funded as a result.

£10 a month isn't even 4 pints (depending on where you are from), only just more expensive than a cinema ticket and cheaper than 2 packs of fags. I'm sure most people that complain about a tenner being too much don't bat an eyelid about going out for a session down the pub once a week and spending more than £10 on take aways a month. If it matters you find a way, if it doesn't, you find an excuse.


Either way, how about this
Full membership to BAF which includes free entry to Nationals and New Year cup £10 per month. Total £120 per year
Half membership to BAF but you have to pay entry to Nationals and New Year cup at £30 a pop, £5 per month. Total £120 per year (if you do both comps)
Junior Membership £3.50 per month

Congress meeting would only be held once a year, where rule changes etc get discussed. This would be the only time where changes can be made.

I for one would pay £5 per month and I think would be a good idea maybe to sell shirts at every comp at dearer prices so as to fund
a national team for worlds and to pay for a team track suits for worlds so this country would look as good and proffessional as others.

A choice of £5 or £10 per month sounds good as some pullers may work shifts and may not be able to attend both comps but good Ideas
there

Jordan Scott wrote:

Hi Dan

Some really great points raised and ones which we are currently battling out amongst the Scottish armwrestlers regarding annual subscriptions and registrations. This is something I think that is imperative to resolve for the future of the sport and would be interested in suggestions.

Regarding the topic of Scotland registering as a separate nation with WAF and EAF, it's only fair that we explain out motive for this move to our fellow British pullers.

Scotland is one of the only 6 countries to compete in every commonwealth games since the first empire games in 1930 (Wales and England) also.

So this history of competing as a separate nation from our fellow British counterparts was one motivation.

Scotland could have its own Olympic team for 2016 Rio games if the country votes for independence next year.

Politics aside, Scottish armwrestlers are keen for the continual growth of the sport and in our mind, if Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales register as individual nations, we are providing the potential for many more British Armwrestlers to travel and compete in high end tournaments such as the European and the worlds.

Not only does this increase the possibility of Britain bringing back more medals via its respective nations but gives more armwrestlers a chance at pulling at a higher level, gaining valuable experience an keeping their passion alight.
Regarding national competitions. We do not wish to dilute the current British national.

Scotland will be holding their own Scottish National. In some respects we thought that if each nation holds their own "closed" national and then come together to a British national pulling 4 nations together, therefore any concern regarding the dilution of the current participation at the British nationals would hopefully be in valid.
I hope this post answers some of the questions surrounding our move and we are happy to answer more.

We are hopeful that all athletes will understand and continue to support us.

Jordan

If Scotland votes for independence then there would be no way to include you in a British national championships as you will no longer be part of Great Britain.
It does open up armwrestling to the oldest sporting rivalry in the world though, so there is always the chance to do a Calcutta cup of armwrestling!! 

[/quote]If Scotland votes for independence then there would be no way to include you in a British national championships as you will no longer be part of Great Britain.
It does open up armwrestling to the oldest sporting rivalry in the world though, so there is always the chance to do a Calcutta cup of armwrestling!! [/quote]
If Scotland gain independence then yes, you are correct, we will not be included in the British Nationals. This is something we will only know come September 2014. In the interim however, I would like BAF to consider Scottish, Irish and Welsh competitors as valued and valid competitors alongside our English pullers.
If we do not gain independence, we still reserve the right to pull as a separate nation at the world etc and hopefully the British Nationals. Any decision to exclude us from this competition would dilute the participation as previously expressed and should voted on at the British Armwrestling Federation’s AGM to ensure the interests of the majority.
Ultimately if politics and/or a decision by the BAF action this exclusion then we are only missing out on the opportunity to pull with and against each other at a ‘British National’.

As you suggest there can be other events and competitions.

I think a meeting to iron out the next 12 months would be of infinite value.

Jordan

The question arises that should you still participate in the British, and take places that would qualify you for the team, then compete for Scotland which do you choose to do, would WAF recognise your staus as British or insist you compete for Scotland?
Maybe it would have been better to wait until after the vote on independence to register as an independent nation.

Our intentions would not to take places away from English pullers, but to ensure Scottish representation at the worlds.
And that is why we competed as an independent nation.
To lose the opportunity to pull at the British national versus gaining the opportunity to secure Scottish armwrestlers at internationals is a no brainer when considering the nurturing of our home grown wrestlers and this is why we didn’t wait.

Argh just wrote a big post and then lost it... grrr

In a nutshel. I agree jordan if you guys wanna pull as scotland thn power to you guys and we should all support and help you grow. it will be good for British armwrestling as a whole, imegen if england, irleland, scotland and Wales all had national championships and then we all came together in one huge comp that in each weight there were 4 national champ and stacked classes, I think thats something we would all want to be a part of. Yes it might be a while of but these things have to start somewhere. And I guess like it or not guys scotland are registered country in WAF and we will have to register as england next year regardless.

The main goal here is to see armwrestling grow in Britain and by getting a commitee together to talk things through and discuss how everyone wants comps run and how things may or may not need to change is the way forward.

We as Great Britain are not big enough to have us spread everywhere but if thats what people want so be it,for a team like Scotland they are not at the level yet were they can compete and gain top 2 spots over the currents guys this wont last forever but for now they are making the best choice for there own growth on a international level,and i wish them all the best and i will continue to support them the best i can even if i think the depth of both countries need to build alittle more first.

Scotland has a nation are far more proud to Scottish as we are English and this pushes them forward in all sports,i am and will think hard about using my roots to pull and help promote armwrestling in Scotland.

Has for the current affairs being mentioned mine would be
1.£5 month dd
2.annual club fee £100
3.commitee to be used majority vote favours
4.paid refs
5.designated staff for weigh inn,scoring,refs,allowing rest for pullers
6.dvd only done by BAF and sold by BAF
7.nationals changed to march allowing for proper training time for europeans/worlds
8.medals instead of cups to save money
9.drug testing randomly chosen by committee

Cheers Paul and Bradley,

You have both been great when it comes to supporting Scottish armwrestling.

Yes our armwrestlers have a long way to go, but their experience at the worlds has lit a fire within them regarding their training and sporting goals.

We look forward to your continued help in the future.

paul maiden wrote:

We as Great Britain are not big enough to have us spread everywhere but if thats what people want so be it,for a team like Scotland they are not at the level yet were they can compete and gain top 2 spots over the currents guys this wont last forever but for now they are making the best choice for there own growth on a international level,and i wish them all the best and i will continue to support them the best i can even if i think the depth of both countries need to build alittle more first.

Scotland has a nation are far more proud to Scottish as we are English and this pushes them forward in all sports,i am and will think hard about using my roots to pull and help promote armwrestling in Scotland.

Has for the current affairs being mentioned mine would be
1.£5 month dd
2.annual club fee £100
3.commitee to be used majority vote favours
4.paid refs
5.designated staff for weigh inn,scoring,refs,allowing rest for pullers
6.dvd only done by BAF and sold by BAF
7.nationals changed to march allowing for proper training time for europeans/worlds
8.medals instead of cups to save money
9.drug testing randomly chosen by committee

I would add to that list,

Sponsors for national team
Scheduled Team GB training days for the team only, once the team has been selected based on national champ results.
Scheduled National training days for every one to attend with a central venue.
Federation designated as a charity, then any donations can be gift aided, tax breaks on venue hire/ equipment costs all profits returned back into the federation.
Eventual recognition of the federation as the governing body for armwrestling in Britain with Sport England, subject to requirements of the application process. http://www.sportengland.org/our-work/national-work/national-governing-bodies/sports-that-we-recognise/

We are one of the smaller clubs but i like the £5 a month & £100 a year club reg etc

What does everyone think of topics raised? Can't move forward unless we are all pointing in same direction ????

£5 a month and £100 club reg sounds fair to me.

I was just wondering would this mean all aw have to be reg with a club before entering a comp so all aw would have to a club
member & also what would the clubs get for the £100 a year and what would the aw get as in the long run would it be the same old aw going to the euro & world each year also to keep the cost down instead of paying ref's could they get free enter to comp + free tshirt for giving there time

It's not so much what does the club get, more, what do we as a nation of armwrestlers get from funds raised.
The money could be used to pay for the British nationals and novice, the new year cup, refs for all 3 comps, team kit for worlds and Europeans, possibly to help subsidise costs for clubs to put on events .

Yes you should be a member of a recognised club to be allowed to armwrestle, you must have received a minimum amount of training under a recognised coach and acheived a certain level of ability before entering, You CANNOT enter a Judo competition without a minimum level of training, nor an MMA fight without belonging to a club, this is a contact, combat sport and needs to be regulated as such.

Andy, If your question is really, why pay if I never get to go to the worlds or europeans?
Do football players in the lower divisions question why they have to pay the FA because they are never going to go to a world cup? No they don't, they pay so they can play the sport they love.
You need to realise, that yes, the people who go to the worlds and europeans are mostly the same people, there is a reason for that, those same people are the ones who pull every single comp, they turn up to nationals and earn their place and there are always new people coming into the GB team.
If you want to be part of the team, turn up and pull nationals.
In 2009 the whole team pitched together to give Tom Holland the opportunity to pull in Italy, we helped with his entry fees, if we had a funding structure in place, this could have been paid for by the BAF.
If you want to do any other sport, it costs money whether that be to pay for a boxing licence, subs for a local football team, a rod licence and club membership to go fishing or at the least a day ticket.
Also, why shouldn't you pay, just because you might not get to go to the worlds?

Why should I give up 6 hours of my day to ref a comp for free entry and a t-shirt (and who pays for the t-shirts?), why should Neil have to spend his own money to pay for trophies and venue hire, then sit for 6 hours scoring and compering a comp.
It's unbeleivably frustrating constantly hearing the whining about lack of events, lack of organisation, constant pestering about when is the British novice? Where do people think the money comes from to run these events, certainly not their pockets.